The paper said Lee was careful and measured during the interview and sounded like "a man still on a mission," occasionally sighing when reminiscing the past.

It said the interview was "heavily edited," with only about one-third of his remarks being published.

Why the visit?
Bilateral relationships
Suharto
Anwar
PAS
Young S'poreans
S'pore Malays
Habibie
Defence
Opposition in S'pore
Asean
Australia in SE Asia
East Timor
Plan to call it a day
China
Greatest achievement

NST: It is a great honour to be with you today.

LKY: I'm surprised you have a lady photographer. (Laughter). I thought Pas would object.

NST: Yes, but we have lots of women photographers. Quite a number of them ... and reporters too. How's your health.

LKY: Compared to 10 years ago when I was last interviewed by New Straits Times Editor (Datuk A.) Kadir Jasin, I'm much slower and less active. But my doctors remind me that I'm 77. I am not doing too badly in spite of some coronary artery problems.

NST: But you look well. The last time I met you was in 1965, I think. Amazing.

LKY: It's the luck of the draw. Every day that I am alive, I consider it a bonus.

NST: Do you still play golf?

LKY: No.

NST: No more? When did you stop?

LKY: About five years ago. Too much trouble in the left shoulder, after 30, 40 years of misuse. (Laughter)

NST: What was your handicap then, when you stopped?

LKY: Oh, about 15. When I was playing with Tunku (Abdul Rahman), they brought me down to nine, but I wasn't playing to nine. (Laughter).

NST: You look very fit. Do you exercise?

LKY: I cycle, I swim. I used to jog, but not now _ my hips won't stand it.

NST: Can we go to question number one ....

LKY: Let me explain my position. What's up? Why the visit? I have been in touch with Tun Daim Zainuddin during the economic crisis because I wanted to know what was happening.

I discussed with him whether I should visit Malaysia because of the many changes. When Mahathir says to the younger generation, "You are not grateful ...", then something is different. Our High Commissioner, Kesavapany, says: "Look, you're out of date. You're thinking of the 'old' Malaysia. This is a new situation, a new generation. You've got to visit."

So I've decided to go by road so that I'll get a better sense of the changes, because in 1990, the North-South highway had not reached Johor Baru.

When I went to Tokyo, I met Mahathir at Obuchi's funeral. I asked to see him. He offered me 8am because he was leaving at nine. I rang him up the night before to say, "Excuse me, I'm a late starter". I said I had been thinking of going up to KL by road. He said, "Yes, come along". I wanted to see Putrajaya, KLIA, the Petronas Twin Towers and other things.

Foreign weeklies speculated I was worried about Islamisation. Others said it's about my book, that material breached the Official Secrets Act!

When Kesavapany said "the New Straits Times wants to interview you", I said "Okay". It's to update myself. I am told there has been a sea of change. It's a sea change in Singapore, too, but because I see it everyday, it's been gradual.

I read your Bar Council president's interview in the Far Eastern Economic Review. It was in a tone I would not have imagined five years ago.

Kesavapany is arranging meetings for me with the think-tanks, businessmen, the media.

NST: No Opposition members?

LKY: No, we observe the forms.

When (Foreign Minister) Syed Hamid Albar came on a visit, he suggested I discuss all outstanding issues with Dr Mahathir. I agreed, but said: "My Prime Minister makes the final decision." I cleared it with our PM.

NST: When was the last time you crossed over to Malaysia for a visit? What happened then?

LKY: The last time was November 1990, when I signed some agreements with Dr Mahathir on buying gas and something else. Then I signed with Daim the POA on railway land just before I resigned as Prime Minister.

I have not gone up since because I did not want to cross my PM's lines with Dr Mahathir. I have stayed away from two countries, or rather, two leaders _ Mahathir and Suharto. Prime Minister Goh wanted to establish ties with them. Since then, I have not discussed business with Dr Mahathir or Suharto.

We meet socially, but have not discussed business. Even with the other Asean leaders, I've avoided crossing my PM's lines. So, I travel abroad to Tokyo, London, Beijing, New York. A different role, a salesman.

NST: Phone calls, or anything like that?

LKY: To?

NST: The leaders?

LKY: No, because otherwise I'll be tripping up PM's lines. Now that he (Goh) has established his lines, he has said, "Well, you go". He knows my purpose. He reads the same reports from Pany.

NST: But you do speak to Daim occasionally on the telephone on a personal basis.

LKY: Yes, on the phone and when he comes down. We've kept in touch. He's easy to deal with. He's a deal-maker _ and I mean it in a good sense. You can talk, argue, bargain with him; he has a quick mind and we can do deals.

NST: Did you know him in England or ...?

LKY: No, after he came back as a lawyer. It's the personal chemistry.

NST: You said you always watch our TV. Do you still read Utusan Malaysia bacause ...?

LKY: No, I can't. Before, I had four or five papers to read. Today, a whole pile: local and foreign newspapers and magazines. It's information overload. I read important summaries of Utusan, Berita Harian. Even the Straits Times (Singapore) I don't finish reading.

NST: So thick.

LKY: It's 100-plus pages! It's a different world. You have to filter and compress to get the essence. The younger Ministers set up their Internet so that news of selected subjects pop up for them _ Singapore and world news.

I just cannot cope with it. As I've said, I'm slower. What I used to do in one hour, now may take two hours.

NST: You are modest.

LKY: A mathematician's most productive years are in the 20s. Great discoveries are made when there is tremendous energy in the brain. For doctors and lawyers, 40 to 60 after accumulation of wisdom and knowledge. Politicians have to weigh the balance between experience and animal spirit.

You've got to go out and enthuse and galvanise the people. Your mind may be functioning, but to go out in the heat (shakes his head)! I watch Mahathir on TV and am amazed how he does it. (Laughter). Ask me now to go out on a whole-day constituency tour, I'll blanch at the prospect.

NST: What is your sincere opinion of Razak and Tunku and Tun Dr Ismail?

LKY: Read my Volume Two. It will be out on Sept 16.

NST: That is Malaysia Day!

LKY: My birthday.

NST: Also?

LKY: Not a lucky day. (Laughter)

NST: Maybe then, we can begin with the bilateral relationship.

LKY: Well, on the deal _ water, POA and so on, I had nothing to do with it. It's all been with the two PMs. If I can help facilitate a resolution, I will do so.

NST: Are you optimistic?

LKY: I cannot say that.

NST: But you are not pessimistic either.

LKY: Nor can I say that. The final decision is between the two PMs.

NST: But you still wield considerable influence.

LKY: That's what everybody says. But I remind people that first there is a question of constitutional right. I mean I've just signed a letter asking for leave of absence from the Prime Minister to go to Malaysia. The political significance is the authority of the PM.

My indirect influence comes from my ability to swing the MPs. If they don't respect my judgment, then I have no power, because the buttons are not with me. My power comes from the record of 40 years of decision-making. The MPs know that I'm not given to wild judgments.

NST: I'm quite sure they do. You are the founding father of this nation.

LKY: But look at what has happened to Suharto.

NST: He was charged today.

LKY: I'm very sad. Indonesia had to rehabilitate Sukarno. Suharto never humiliated Sukarno. How could he humiliate Sukarno, who had done so much for Indonesia? I feel very sad for Suharto. What his children did, that's different.

NST: I think Asiaweek said you are worried about the resurgence of Islam in Malaysia. Tell us the truth.

LKY: Well, it is a watershed development. Pas was able to persuade the DAP to join them in Barisan Alternatif. Keadilan joining them, yes, but DAP!

DAP was punished in the elections. But something must have happened for the DAP leaders to believe that this was a viable alternative.

Pany reported that DAP leaders were sending coach-loads of DAP stalwarts to see Kelantan and Terengganu and to meet Pas leaders.

Will Barisan Alternatif survive five years? After 19 years of Mahathir's drive to push Malaysians into science and technology and the Internet, you have a differently educated generation. Can they be brought back and put into a cage?

Look at Iran ... the students are in rebellion. To move away from the modern world is unthinkable after the last 19 years.

NST: But at the time when the DAP joined the Barisan Alternatif, at the time, I think Pas really believed that they had a chance to form the government.

LKY: They were carried away by this ....

NST: Anwar, the Anwar factor?

LKY: Yes, Reformasi. We were in time of turmoil. Reformasi in Indonesia toppled Suharto. Anwar picked up Reformasi. So didChee Soon Juan in Singapore. They did not catch fire. But in Indonesia, they had succeeded in unravelling the fabric of society.

NST: Did you meet Anwar, did he come to see you when he was in power?

LKY: Well, he came for meetings, yes.

NST: Do you think Suharto is finished?

LKY: As a leader he is finished. But is he finished in history? No. He gave Indonesia 32 years of development, and Southeast Asia 32 years of stability so all of us could grow.

NST: Anwar?

LKY: Anwar? Anwar the icon will be used by Pas and other opposition parties to hit at Mahathir and Umno. In interviews, Pas leaders are supportive of Anwar. They never downed him.

NST: And do you think the Malays would be influenced by this?

LKY: It depends upon what happens between now and the election. What is significant is the number of young Malay professionals joining Pas. If they grow in strength and displace the present Pas image of the goatee beard and the white skull-cap of the devout Muslim with that of the modern Malay professional, that's a different challenge.

NST: Even then, they will be subjected to the ulamaks' council.

LKY: But the mass followers may not know that. Pany reported the Menteri Besar of Kelantan had approved the building of a Hindu temple.

NST: If we go by that, if we take that question forward, how would this affect Singapore-Malaysia political co-operation and the future, if Pas makes further inroads in Malaysian politics?

LKY: They as the government? I do not see them as a government for a long time. They have to change to carry the West Coast, and Johor, Sabah and Sarawak.

NST: You talk about youth. Young Singaporeans seem to have a passion for Western things. You know, designer goods and all that. Is this a source of concern?

LKY: Well, yes, the poll said they would prefer to be Caucasians or Japanese.

NST: Why Japanese?

LKY: Because Japanese are wealthy.

NST: Singapore is wealthy, too.

LKY: No, we are not as wealthy as the Japanese nor as technologically advanced. They make computers, Sony Play Stations, Docomo and travel the world. Those were immature answers (by young Singaporeans) given in a light-hearted manner. Can they disavow their ancestors, history, culture, everything? They will grow out of it.

NST: What do you think of the Malays themselves, the Singaporean Malays? You know, there is a perception that they're being marginalised.

LKY: Well, I've read the articles in Berita and Utusan. If anybody can bring out instances of discrimination, I'll be the first to say, "Let's stamp it out". If we want to have a happy society, at ease with itself, we cannot have that.

The facts are that in 1990 when PM Goh took over, 12.5 per cent of Malays reached tertiary education _ polytechnics and universities. Last year it was 28 per cent.

It means that over a quarter of Malays in Singapore are going to be professionals. They are working in Credit Suisse, First Boston and the other big banks. We've got Malay engineers working in German engineering companies.

They have formed an Association of Muslim Professionals to which the PM has given support, matching contributions up to several million dollars every year. They run programmes to upgrade the education of other Malays.

Mendaki, run by another group, gives special tuition to bring Malay students up to a higher level. The results are encouraging. In the Third International Science and Mathematics Studies 1994-1995, results released 96/97 (this tested our average schools, including Malay students), our nine-year-olds ranked first in mathematics and seventh in science. Our 13-year-olds came first in mathematics and science.

They were ranked against the developed countries _ UK, the US, Japan, etc. In other words, the extra effort has made it possible for them to go to tertiary education.

NST: You are talking about the Malays?

LKY: Yes, including the Malays. This was an across-the-board study of mixed classes in average schools. They took a whole school of that age group, with Malays represented in the national population _ 14-15 per cent of the students.

Look at home ownership, started in the 1960s. Today, 94 per cent of Malay households own flats _ 70 per cent are four-room, and above. Four-room flats today are priced between S$200,000 and S$400,000.

We are now a different society. Have we marginalised our Malays? My PM took a political risk raising this madrasah (religious schools) issue. He could have looked the other way and let the madrasah carry on. They have a total of 4000 students. Look at the syllabus _ Arabic, Quranic studies ....

NST: Nothing else?

LKY: He said, "Please also learn English, mathematics, science, computers ...."

NST: That is a problem we also have. I think you are wise to do that.

LKY: If we don't, they will be unemployed. Then they will blame the Government, not their parents. We are now a very different economy. Jobs are being lost every year and the new jobs are different. If you are not computer literate, you are disadvantaged.

NST: But would you say that at one time the loyalty of the Malays to Singapore was being questioned?

LKY: We brought the issue out in the open because we believe, over time, not only do we desensitise it, we will also be able to talk frankly, that it takes time really for us to gel into a nation.

A nation is not born simply by going to school, singing the national anthem as you raise the national flag, and when you graduate in 10 years, we are a nation. People have to feel that they have a shared destiny. Do we feel that yet? I'm not prepared to say so.

NST: Why?

LKY: Because I don't think we have had a long enough history. It is too short, 35 years. But we must do it. What's the alternative?

NST: By having a shared destiny, does it mean you have to be able to compete with your neighbours? Would you also say that there is this mentality in Singapore that Singapore is within a Malay area?

LKY: Habibie said last year, "You (Singapore) are a red dot. Look at all the green around you".

NST: Senior Minister, but look what happened to Habibie?

LKY: But there are others who may come along later who also think like Habibie. When he said that, he aroused latent fears. When Chinese in Jakarta were attacked and the women raped, many Chinese in Indonesia sought refuge in Singapore. We felt the tension and fear.

We have to be honest and face facts. I admit straight away that Chinese-Malay relations in Singapore are not decided in Singapore alone. They are affected by Chinese-Malay relations in Malaysia and to a lesser extent Chinese-Indonesian relations in Indonesia. That's the reality.

NST: Senior Minister, Singapore spends a lot of money on defence..

LKY: Yes.

NST: Who are you afraid of? Who are your enemies?

LKY: We spend five to six per cent of our GDP on defence. And we try to maintain that.

If we name our enemies, we will make enemies. (Laughter). Let me put it simply. We are not a threat to any country. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that we can capture territory. Can we retain that territory? We can't, so what's the point of taking on the problem?

NST: About your expenditure for defence, and the reason behind it _ is that also the reason why you have, for example, financed the so-called spy satellite with Israel?

LKY: I can't confirm that. We can get nearly all the information by paying the French or Americans, except not in such fine detail. We do not want to go to war with anybody. What for? But we must be able to inflict a very high price ... and then go to the UN.

After what happened to Cambodia where the Vietnamese had to withdraw after 10 years and in East Timor where the Indonesians had to leave after 24 years, capturing other countries is a dangerous and futile exercise.

We've got this little country. We never intended to be independent. The Tunku decided with Razak and Tun Dr Ismail Abdul Rahman that the best way was for us to look after ourselves. We feared for our future. Fortunately, we were able to turn the economy around and created a new economy. We are happy to be ourselves.

NST: The best defence would also be to have good relations with neighbours, in the sense that Singapore needs to be resilient that nobody should be able to attack it. The alternative is also to have a very good rapport with other leaders.

LKY: I fully endorse what you say. For 32 years we were great neighbours with Suharto. Right through the crisis, we tried to help him and Indonesia. We ended up with Habibie.

NST: You said it is not likely the opposition in Malaysia will form the government. What is the state of the opposition in Singapore?

LKY: In the last three elections, the opposition deliberately fielded less than half the candidates to let the PAP be returned unopposed as the government on nomination day. They knew that if they fielded more than half, people would hesitate to vote for them because they did not want a change of Government.

But at the same time, people wanted an opposition to press the government for more concessions. We lost four seats in 1991. In 1997, we lost two. In several constituencies where we won, they were able to get 30-40 plus per cent of the votes. The opposition will always be there, because it is the nature of every society, especially a multiracial one.

NST: There is no fear of the opposition growing, is there?

LKY: How we go depends on the new PAP leaders _ and they are not new any more, been around for 10 years _ accept and absorb good minds with contrary views. So long as a person is able and means well, let him disagree with your policy. If he has good ideas, listen to him. Co-opt him, bring him on board.

We have to change, because society is changing. If we don't change, we become irrelevant. Look at the Communist Party of Vietnam and the Communist Party of China. In Vietnam, they are still communists, but in China they are pragmatists.

NST: What about Asean. Is it asserting itself?

LKY: It will take several years to recover. Indonesia was the anchor member because of its size. While Indonesia is sorting out its problems, the other original members _ Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines and Singapore _ should together give Asean a push.

Joint marketing by the four will show solidarity, to demonstrate that in spite of the bombs and hostage-taking and the bomb in Jakarta injuring the Philippine ambassador, it is not a dangerous, high-risk region.

We have got to let investors know that there are large areas in Asean that are doing well. Joint marketing can help us. Let us go as a team to Europe, America, Japan.

NST: Rather than doing it individually?

LKY: That's right. Go ahead with Afta in 2003. Don't backtrack. On motorcar parts, Dr M talks about 2005. That's not a big issue and can be accommodated. To backtrack is to lose credibility.

NST: What about members of Asean helping to resolve each other's political problems?

LKY: I did not think it was practical to solve the problems of another country, especially Indonesia. We went to East Timor because the Indonesians urged us to go to dilute the Australian presence.

NST: What about Australia's role in Southeast Asia? Do you think they will go further than that? Because we can't do it, they fill the vacuum that we could not?

LKY: For Australia, it was a costly exercise, financially, and diplomatically. The AWSJ said in an editorial that sovereignty is now differently defined and Maluku should have international intervention. Newspapers can say that, but Indonesia will not be comfortable.

NST: Is Australia aware of this?

LKY: They have an ambassador in Jakarta.

NST: But he seems not to listen. He's only temporary.

LKY: In East Timor, domestic politics was a powerful factor. From 1975, East Timorese emigres were in Darwin, Melbourne, Sydney. They enjoyed popular support in Australia. I do not believe John Howard did not know that East Timor was going to be a costly exercise.

NST: Another thing _ and don't misunderstand me, I want you to continue as long as you want _ when do you plan to call it a day?

LKY: My thinking is simple. Since my stent (for the heart), I take everyday as a bonus. The doctors showed me a 30 per cent blockage in another artery but they didn't want to touch it because it could make it worse.

NST: So, you will continue as long as you want?

LKY: As long as I have useful views to make to the PM and his Ministers. George Yeo is an ideas man who espouses ideals that resonate with the young. After interacting with me, George gradually realised that we are a mixed society of Asians, not a Western society. His presentations have become more practical over the past 10 years. And the PAP has undergone a complete change to meet the challenges of the new generation.

All the old officials have given way to young, highly-educated people. I am not saying that they are better. I'm saying that they can work the computer, e-mail each other, do broadsheets and share the interests of their generation. So they have been able to attract their peers, friends and prople of their generation.

My PM, who is touching 60, told me the other day, "They look so young". He had a meeting with some students. I added that their experience, expectations, the things they absorb from television and the Internet are different.

NST: One more thing _ Mahathir seems to be very keen on China now. Do you see China emerging as a superpower?

LKY: It could take 30 to 50 years, if they don't run into social upheavals, if they can cope with changes to their society because they are now opened up.

They also now have the Internet. In 30 to 50 years, they will become a considerable economy, which means a considerable power. It's just a matter of time.

NST: And they have the people, too.

LKY: Yes.

NST: What would you say is your greatest achievement?

LKY: My greatest achievement is that there is a Singapore and that it's still working after the new guard has taken over. It means we have placed adequate institutions and systems for a capable team to take over.

NST: Any regrets?

LKY: Aug 9, 1965, I can't forget that. We spent so much time to bring about Malaysia. Yes, I was sad to give it up in less than two years.

                                                    Home