Christopher Gunness: Yesterday, we reported on the remarks of Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew. While on his first visit to Malaysia in a decade he told the press conference that the Anwar affair was ""an unmitigated disaster'' for which he said he felt more sorry for the Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad than Mr Anwar. Mr Lee said Dr Mahathir had made several errors of judgment. He also revealed he had told Dr Mahathir that criminal law and not the Internal Security Act should have been used against Anwar. Lee Kuan Yew joins us now.

Senior Minister, do you think you made a mistake in saying those things?

A: No, I don't think so. I couldn't say it while the Anwar trial was on because it was not the right thing to do. But the trial is over and I think it should be known that Dr Mahathir was not responsible for Anwar's arrest under the Internal Security Act nor was he responsible for Anwar's black eye.

I spoke to him in Davos about two, three months after the Anwar arrest and the awful appearance in court which caused consternation worldwide. I asked him why should he have been arrested under the Internal Security Act. And he told me that he did not know that Anwar was to be arrested under the ISA. Now we also have the ISA. And I was astounded that he was not told. He explained that in Malaysia it was the legal right or prerogative of the police chief to arrest without informing the Minister or the Prime Minister.

Q: Senior Minister, if I can just ask you this, in saying that Dr Mahathir...

A: No, no, let me explain why I said it's an unmitigated disaster. Now, then the "blue'' eye appeared after two weeks. If it had been done under the Criminal Procedure Code that wouldn't have happened.

Q: But minister, could I just ask you a question here? In saying that Dr Mahathir didn't know the ISA was being used, are you suggesting that he is, in some sense, incompetent? Was that one of the errors of judgment, to use your own phrase?

A: My comment that it was a major error of judgment was that he did not go public with it. He could have countermanded the arrest under the ISA and proceeded under the Criminal Procedure Act. But he was not a lawyer. I am, and I would have done that straightaway. And the other thing was not taking immediate action against the police chief for abusing his powers.

Now, because he did not do this, Dr Mahathir carried the political fallout from the actions, the blunders of the police Inspector-General, and he has paid a very heavy price because the world thought and the media reports were such that he had instructed or personally been responsible for these acts, and that coloured all subsequent proceedings and the reports of this trial.

Q: Minister, could I...

A: Now having done that, it would not have been such an unmitigated disaster.

Q: Okay, Senior Minister, let me just ask you one question. I think it's on everyone's minds. Why on earth did you say anything at all? And why on earth did you say anything publicly in another press conference? Why not go back to Singapore and say nothing?

A: No, because I was pressed again and again by the agencies and I thought that it was only right and proper now that the trial is over that the world should know that I had discussed this with him in Davos whilst the trial was about to proceed and he had told me and I believed him and I was convinced that he told me the truth because after that, I discussed it with several of his ministers and they assured me that Dr Mahathir had nothing to do either with the arrest under the ISA or the black eye.

And I think that was a grave mistake not making that position clear at the outset....

Gunness: Mr Lee...

A: ...at the beginning of the trial because the whole proceedings were coloured by the fact that this poor man was being victimised.